Curse

Gorillastein · Apr 25, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

People keep saying this is skill based PvP.

How so?

tell me what I can do as a player that will give me an edge?

Never having played the game, is it possible to dodge an incoming ranged attack through reflexes?

Are we talking twitch based skill or what?

Clue me in.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 25, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Well first of all, skill isn't restricted to hand/eye coordination where you're just "dodging" ranged attacks. I really don't know why people think that's all there is to skill.

The skill in GW isn't twitch based skill used in FPS shooters but as in strategic and preparation and timing. Knowing what skills to bring, how to build your character, when to use those skills, etc etc. You'll just have to play the game to find out firsthand.

Gorillastein · Apr 25, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Well first of all, skill isn't restricted to hand/eye coordination where you're just "dodging" ranged attacks. I really don't know why people think that's all there is to skill.

The skill in GW isn't twitch based skill used in FPS shooters but as in strategic and preparation and timing. Knowing what skills to bring, how to build your character, when to use those skills, etc etc. You'll just have to play the game to find out firsthand.

I would not call a character build skill either. 90% of the "skilled" players just copy a template. Knowing what button to press when you see a certain situation on screen isn't skill either.

You mentioned timing. Please tell me more of what has to be timed. That is starting to sound like skill.

Tanik · Apr 25, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Yes you can move out of the way of arrows and almost all AoE spells(maybe all?) Also there is team work, communication skills, creating an unexpected build that people underestimate is a skill(this happened with me till last BWE seemed people ignore trappers up till then), its not purely twitch based, but there is some that twitch skills could be useful with. Calling is another skill, knowing who to call and when, knowing when to change the target and when to increase the pressure, defensive and offensive manuevers, not all battles take the same plan for your team build and you usually have to adjust on the fly. Its all a type of skill.. it really is unlike anything ive ever played before, it combines so much into one massively fun frag fest.

oh yeah
PS. PvE RULES!

Caelib · Apr 25, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Skill AKA TACTICS.

Basically, the general idea here is that uber gear is not the deciding factor in PvP combat (*cough* DAoC *cough*)

iczer · Apr 25, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caelib

Basically, the general idea here is that uber gear is not the deciding factor in PvP combat

Nor do levels, your level doesn’t necessarily make you UBER either. It is possible for a lower level toon to take down a higher level toon.

- Iczer

Epinephrine · Apr 25, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorillastein

I would not call a character build skill either. 90% of the "skilled" players just copy a template. Knowing what button to press when you see a certain situation on screen isn't skill either.

You mentioned timing. Please tell me more of what has to be timed. That is starting to sound like skill.

Mesmers for example have spells that are fast casting times and shut down other player's spells - if you see a player start a casting gesture you can quickly target them, check what spell they are casting and decide whether to use your counterspell - that requires speed and decision making - is that going to be the biggest threat in the next 20 seconds while your interrupt recharges? Is it worth the cost to you to counter it? Think fast, you have about .75 seconds to get the whole thing done vs a 1 second spell, and you need to do this a lot. Healing is a skill, you are constantly trying to minimise the impact of the opponent team's attacks on your side - when to use what skill is important - deciding on what heal goes where is skill based and requires anticipating what damage will be coming in. There is skill in build design, but it is easy to copy - what's hard is to play it well.

Other builds though are pretty plain - someone calls a target and you all dump damage at it. Might take a bit of skill, but essentially just pouring out damage is lacking in finesse.

Unik · Apr 25, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Just to add an extra point, when talking about timing in GW, this is also accurate for skills and attacks, not only in the sense when do I attack but also with what skill.

For example, this is just one, but this is accurate for many skills in the game. Of course like it was mentioned choosing which 8 skills to bring is one thing and the timing is not only important in the sense of when to attack and when to defend, but also when to use which skill.

So in battle using for example using *Backfire* on a warrior just after he as burned is little energy reserve, will most likely turn into a miss, as he probably won’t be casting anything for a while and Backfire will have time to ware off. The same type of timing can be associated with skills that have extra effects or damage when foes are knocked down like aftershock.

In a completely different aspect timing is also important between team members, two players casting the same degeneration skill on the same target at the same time will not stack as the second skill will only reset the first, in this case wasting one obviously.

These are just a couple of situation that came to mind regarding strategy and the importance of timing in GW, I’m sure many more cases and situations can be applied. I hope this helped and wish you the best in GW.

Unik

Manderlock · Apr 25, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Mesmers for example have spells that are fast casting times and shut down other player's spells - if you see a player start a casting gesture you can quickly target them, check what spell they are casting and decide whether to use your counterspell - that requires speed and decision making - is that going to be the biggest threat in the next 20 seconds while your interrupt recharges? Is it worth the cost to you to counter it? Think fast, you have about .75 seconds to get the whole thing done vs a 1 second spell, and you need to do this a lot. Healing is a skill, you are constantly trying to minimise the impact of the opponent team's attacks on your side - when to use what skill is important - deciding on what heal goes where is skill based and requires anticipating what damage will be coming in. There is skill in build design, but it is easy to copy - what's hard is to play it well.

Other builds though are pretty plain - someone calls a target and you all dump damage at it. Might take a bit of skill, but essentially just pouring out damage is lacking in finesse.

oic, so we non-mesmer playing people have just "a bit of skill" while you and your godly skills comand the mesmer.

Please, there a different types of skill need for every class. Granted the mesmer is a tough class to play, but to say that the other classes require little to no skill is not even close to the truth.

Pocune · Apr 25, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

oic, so we non-mesmer playing people have just "a bit of skill" while you and your godly skills comand the mesmer.

Please, there a different types of skill need for every class. Granted the mesmer is a tough class to play, but to say that the other classes require little to no skill is not even close to the truth.

I guess you and I took different meanings from his post. I thought he was refering to the mesmer as an example of an alternative to just bashing someone with a sword. Most mesmers simply are not there to do damage. Many builds from many roles contain situational abilities that are not solely based around damage.

He mentions the mesmer and the healer, which you seem to have not noticed, as two examples of difficult classes which require skills to play.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 25, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Skill in Guild Wars is...

20% Your Build
20% The way your build works with your team's build
40% How well your team works together
10% How you work alone
5% Luck
5% FPS twich skills

Mostly tactical, a tiny bit of twich, and a tiny bit of luck.

Epinephrine · Apr 25, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

oic, so we non-mesmer playing people have just "a bit of skill" while you and your godly skills comand the mesmer.

Please, there a different types of skill need for every class. Granted the mesmer is a tough class to play, but to say that the other classes require little to no skill is not even close to the truth.

I was speaking of classes I know. I am not certain about how much skill goes into classes I don't play - I do know that in any game there will be straightforward builds, and I imagine that some builds I have seen described are essentially dumping damage. You'll notice that I didn't say other classes - I said other builds - there are ridiculously simple Mesmer builds based on DoTs and such, and I am sure timing a disrupting chop is hard too. I never said other classes are easier or harder, I said that some builds are just damage dumpers.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 25, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

A few thing that you can use during combat that have nothing to do with your character level/attribute/skills:

-Dodging Ranged Projectiles with movements
-Buy Time To Heal And Avoid Getting Hit by Ranged Projectiles by hiding behinde walls
-Force The Chaser To Get Stuck by running around a cluster of characters doing battle that formed a blockade.
-Help Team Mate To Escape From The Chaser by jumping into the middle of the way between the chaser and your team mate.
-Intercepting The Enemy's Skill Usage by using the apropriate skill in the middle of their animation phase.
-Use Height Advantages
-Ignore The Opponent's Shield Effect by attacking them from behinde.
-Take Advantage Of Opponent's Lower Level Armor On Specific Part of the Body by using different skills that attack different places (hamstring -> Leg, Fire Storm-> Head etc)
-Gain Advantage During Battle by planning ahead of time before battle.
-Force Opponents To Move Out Of Specific Area Beneficial To Them (ex: Wards) by throwing an AoE in the middle of the ward.
-Improve Combat Ability by merely doing a good job in putting coresponding skills into the 8 skills slots.

Ahhh... That's all for now

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 25, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorillastein

I would not call a character build skill either. 90% of the "skilled" players just copy a template. Knowing what button to press when you see a certain situation on screen isn't skill either.

You mentioned timing. Please tell me more of what has to be timed. That is starting to sound like skill.

90% copy a template? Where the heck did you pull that number? Anyway, people who blindly copy a template won't completely understand how that build works. You're still thinking of skill as something "physical" which is crazy considering it's a computer game.

Manderlock · Apr 25, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I was speaking of classes I know. I am not certain about how much skill goes into classes I don't play - I do know that in any game there will be straightforward builds, and I imagine that some builds I have seen described are essentially dumping damage. You'll notice that I didn't say other classes - I said other builds - there are ridiculously simple Mesmer builds based on DoTs and such, and I am sure timing a disrupting chop is hard too. I never said other classes are easier or harder, I said that some builds are just damage dumpers.

Since you singled out the Mesmer class i just asumed that you meant the healing class.

To Pocune: So skill to you is a build that does not focuse on dmg? A dmg dealing build can be a hard class to play, just as the mesmer can be a hard class.

Hado · Apr 25, 2005, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Guild Wars is heavily build-based atm. If you're looking for something where your individual player skills shine through (esp. twitch based ones, like dodging, reactions, aim) you won't find it here. But if you are good at these things you will probably be a "good player" in GW.

That said, to be a successful team in GW you need players that have experience together and good strategies along with a certain level of individual competency... along with a powerful build. The days when you could just pick any class skills and with a good team make them work are long gone.

By the way, check your PM Gorillastein.

Snowman · Apr 25, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

A few thing that you can use during combat that have nothing to do with your character level/attribute/skills:

-Dodging Ranged Projectiles with movements
-Buy Time To Heal And Avoid Getting Hit by Ranged Projectiles by hiding behinde walls
-Force The Chaser To Get Stuck by running around a cluster of characters doing battle that formed a blockade.
-Help Team Mate To Escape From The Chaser by jumping into the middle of the way between the chaser and your team mate.
-Intercepting The Enemy's Skill Usage by using the apropriate skill in the middle of their animation phase.
-Use Height Advantages
-Ignore The Opponent's Shield Effect by attacking them from behinde.
-Take Advantage Of Opponent's Lower Level Armor On Specific Part of the Body by using different skills that attack different places (hamstring -> Leg, Fire Storm-> Head etc)
-Gain Advantage During Battle by planning ahead of time before battle.
-Force Opponents To Move Out Of Specific Area Beneficial To Them (ex: Wards) by throwing an AoE in the middle of the ward.
-Improve Combat Ability by merely doing a good job in putting coresponding skills into the 8 skills slots.

Ahhh... That's all for now

I have also been wondering about the skill for this game, I have lots of experience with other MMO's but not much with guildwars..

This list is VERY good, and answers most of my questions about what the game will be like!! My most favorite is the first one..

-Dodging Ranged Projectiles with movements

In CoH, if you get targetted it doesnt matter: how far away you get, what was between you and the target, or, what type of projectile weapon it was! you always got hit as if you were point at blank.

so im looking forward to not having that annoyance and moving about a bit

On the general discussion about skill and its definition,

No matter how you define it, I think we could all agree that skill of any kind takes time to attain, its a process of learning and applying knowledge which we all do and perceive in very different ways.

Snowman

Gamertaku · Apr 25, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I'd have to agree with Weezer_Blue's assessment. About 90% of combat in PvP in this game is how well you and your teammates work together. Not necessarily the idea of "skill" the team at ArenaNet and NCSoft might have wanted to convey. It's more about how well you know your teammates and how well you can coordinate with them. This is why the idea of Guilds is very important in the game. Unfortunately, in my time playing the betas, I have seen far too many teams or even whole guilds fall victim to poor coordination. It makes me worry a bit to see such a problem, however the game apart from that still seems quite good.

Cain · Apr 25, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I once heard someone say Guild Wars is 90% planning and 10% execution. I have to say that I agree. I've spend as much as 5 hours coming up with a build for a match that might only last 20 minutes.

Zarconis · Apr 25, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorillastein

People keep saying this is skill based PvP.
How so?
tell me what I can do as a player that will give me an edge?
Never having played the game, is it possible to dodge an incoming ranged attack through reflexes?
Are we talking twitch based skill or what?
Clue me in.

Most of these post are accurate. I believe Cains post for the most part sums it up, but I would go one step further to state...

Skill in GW can be equated your knowledge of what your skills as well as your teammates and opponetns skills do and how to apply your skills given the current situation at hand.

I think reflexes and dodging ranged attacks has very little to do with actual skill.